Tag Archives: Wlad

Anthony Joshua VS Jack Dempsey, Joe Louis, Rocky, Ali, Joe Frazier, Big George, Larry Holmes, Iron Mike, Lennox Lewis, & Wlad

Anthony Joshua: age 27, 18-0, 18 KO, 44 rounds, 3-0, 3 KO title record. The Josh prime pro career has only just started, yet he is currently the best he’s ever been, so how does that stack up with the best heavyweights ever in a fair comparison, F-A-I-R being the keyword here?

Careful Ref on Josh's Knockdown Follow Through

Careful Ref on Josh’s Knockdown Follow Through

Cross referencing the timelines involved using statistical variables yields the following:

Jack Dempsey 12-1-5, 11 KO 1916, age 19, no contender 5 years before title

Joe Louis 18-0, 14 KO 1935, age 21, no contender 2 years before title

Rocky Marciano 18-0, 17 KO 1949, age 25, no contender 3 year before title

Muhammad Ali 18-0, 14 KO 1963, age 22, one contender Doug Jones 1 year before title

Joe Frazier 18-0, 16 KO 1967, age 23, no contender 1 year before title

George Foreman 18-0, 15 KO 1970, age 21, no contender 3 years before title

Larry Holmes 18-0, 13 KO 1975, age 26, no contender 3 years before title

Mike Tyson 18-0, 18 KO 1986, age 19, no contender 9 months before title

Lennox Lewis 18-0, 16 KO 1991, age 26, no contender 2 years before title

Wladimir Klitschko 18-0, 17 KO 1998, age 21, no contender 2 years before title

My conclusion: Josh whoops all save the possibilities of still green  Joe Louis, Foreman, Tyson, or Wlad getting to him. Josh easily whoops all their comp at that stage with not many of Josh’s comp being whooped by their comp as they build their records on the timeline. Josh represents the new continuation of supersized heavyweights that has taken over the division since the reigns of Lewis and the Klitschkos. His biggest advantage besides size/strength/boxing ability is being a fully mature age 27 in his athletic prime years with unparalleled success, scarcely losing a round. Most of the others were much younger at the same stage and less developed.

These I take to be the protagonists’ best fight showing dominance without controversy or officiating help: Joshua–undefeated Dillon Whyte pretitle

Jack Dempsey–KO champion Jess Willard in a epic beatdown

Joe Louis– KO rematch of 52-7-4 Max Schmeling in the biggest ever fight of the day broadcast by radio internationally to an estimated 70 million radios with uncounted numbers of listeners in dozens of countries gathered wherever a radio could pick up the relayed broadcasts

Rocky Marciano– KO 149-19-8 LH champ Archie Moore

Muhammad Ali– UD 39-4 WBA champ Ernie Terrell

Joe Frazier– UD Undefeated champ Ali in Fight of The Century/Fight of the Year

George Foreman– KO undefeated champ Joe Frazier

Larry Holmes– UD 20-2 contender Randall Cobb
.
Mike Tyson– UD undefeated WBC champ Tony Tucker

Lennox Lewis– UD once defeated 37-1 contender David Tua

Wlad Klitschko– UD undefeated Alexander Povetkin in his homeland of Russia while Russia was engaged in a low level war against Klitschko’s native Ukraine, so political animosity and armament was off the shelf.

Could Joe Louis beat Max Schmeling with the rematch being held in Nazi Germany? We can’t say other to note it was easier to beat Max in Yankee Stadium than to travel to hostile Berlin. Can Wlad beat Josh in front of 90,000 screaming meemies in England’s Wembley Stadium? In two weeks we’ll have that answer.

6-6, 250 lbs vs 6-6, 250 lbs in Black Tees

6-6, 250 lbs vs 6-6, 250 lbs in Black Tees

My conclusion for now: Dempsey, Tyson, Frazier, Foreman, Lewis, and Wlad comprehensively whooped better fighters than did Josh, and certainly Rocky also by the legendary status of Moore who might well whoop Whyte also even if a bit of a stretch size and age wise. Whyte vs Terrell or Cobb would be good 50-50 scraps. I could go into the 2nd and 3rd best bouts showing dominance, but this project just a short refresher of the historical timelines of these fighters, and by the end of his career, Josh surely will have many more scalps in comparison. Thing is, if Josh whoops Wlad in his upcoming, bingo, now he has a comparable victory to Frazier.

Finally, let’s look at where the fighters were at age 27 as Josh currently is.

Jack Dempsey age 27, out of boxing for that year, title record 4-0, 4 KO.

Joe Louis age 27, beat Buddy Baer, Billy Conn, Lou Nova, Buddy Baer rematch, Abe Simon, all title fights before being inducted into the Army for 3 yrs. Title record of 22-0, 19 KO.

Rocky Marciano age 27, usually by KO beat Tiger Ted Lowry, Bill Wilson, Keen Simmons, Harold Mitchell, Art Henri, Willis Applegate, Rex Layne, and Freddie Beshore, all pre-title fights the year before his title with Rex Layne being his first Ring ranked scalp.

Muhammad Ali age 27, in boxing exile up before the US Supreme Court for judgement with a title record of 10-0, 8 KO.

Joe Frazier age 27, BTFO out of Ali in FOTC/FOY. Title record 8-0, 6 KO.

George Foreman age 27, KOed Ron Lyle, Joe Frazier, Scott Le Doux, and Dino Denis at the start of his comeback from Ali loss, title record of 3-1, 3 KO.

Larry Holmes age 27, beat Tom Prater, Horace Robinson, and Fred Houpe, all unranked pre-title fights 2 years before his title.

Mike Tyson age 27 incarcerated on bogus rape charges arranged by DKing. Title record of 10-1, 8 KO.

Lennox Lewis age 27, beat Razor Ruddock and then Tony Tucker for his first title(vacated by Big Dummy Bowe)

Wlad Klitschko age 27, beat a couple of minor fringe contenders looking for his 2nd title, title record of 6-1, 5 KO.

My conclusion: Ali and Tyson were unavailable, but more proven and would be the favorites. Rocky and Holmes were too poorly tutored to beat Josh if ever. Lewis was near the same unproven stage as Josh, but Dempsey, Louis, Foreman, and Wlad were more proven and have excellent chances of knocking Josh out with Josh being the underdog. As much as I love Frazier, this a bad size and style matchup for him that I’d pick Josh over in spite of Frazier being more proven. Lewis knocking out washed up versions of Razor Ruddock and Tony Tucker yields no confidence in him as he always looked ready to faint when entering the ring. Josh in comparison has the Eric Molina defense to take him to a 3-0, 3KO title record, and he’s coming up on the Wlad challenge, so he has 7 more months to make his 27 year old destiny.

In summary: Josh is up there by many measures in his current form or has surpassed many on this list at the comparable timelines, most particularly at the comparative 18-0 marks. He still has quite the gauntlet to traverse before being mentioned with the upper echelons of greats as I’m sure most already instinctively know.

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Good Sport Updated~Ring Ratings vs Boxrec Ratings~Who You Got?

Well folks, the “boxing experts” who purport to know all about boxing so as to fill our empty noggins with their boxing “expertise” seem to be completely at odds with each other here. No surprises there since boxing is a sport with rules that “boxing experts” often ignore so as to benefit “the chosen” for personal gain or other purpose. Nobody can even say with any degree of certainty from fight to fight which biases the referee will show or how close or far apart the fight scores will be. And for whom? Naturally this is passed on in their ranking systems, in this example being in dire opposition to each other, a perfect draw in boxing terms, but is it really?

You can see some fun I previously had with Ring rankings here, utter hilarity distilled just for you:

https://roberto00.wordpress.com/2010/05/04/ratings-ring-ratings-good-sport/

Anyways, ahem, the current Ring P4Pers were elected by rather large committee circle of…”experts”…are thus:

  • 1. ROMAN GONZALEZ Record: 43-0-0 (37 KOs)
    Ranking:This Week: 1 | Last Week: 1 | Weeks On List: 68
    Title: RING, WBC flyweight
    2. Andre Ward Record: 28-0-0 (15 KOs)
    Ranking:This Week: 2 | Last Week: 2 | Weeks On List:
    No title
    3. Sergey Kovalev Record: 28-0-1 (25 KOs)
    Ranking:This Week: 3 | Last Week: 3 | Weeks On List: 28
    Title: WBO, IBF, WBA light heavyweight
    4. Gennady Golovkin Record: 33-0-0 (30 KOs)
    Ranking: This Week: 4 | Last Week: 4 | Weeks On List: 32
    Title:WBA middleweight
    5. Guillermo Rigondeaux Record: 15-0-0 (10 KOs)
    Ranking: This Week: 5 | Last Week: 5 | Weeks On List: 109
    Title: RING, WBO, WBA jr. featherweight
    6. Wladimir Klitschko Record: 64-3-0 (53 KOs)
    Ranking: This Week: 6 | Last Week: 6 | Weeks On List: 268
    Title: RING, IBF, WBO, WBA heavyweight
    7. Terence Crawford Record: 26-0-0 (18 KOs)
    Ranking: This Week: 7 | Last Week: 7 | Weeks On List: 21
    Title: WBO jr. welterweight
    8. Manny Pacquiao Record: 57-6-2 (38 KOs)
    Ranking: This Week: 8 | Last Week: 8 | Weeks On List: 617
    No title
    9. Shinsuke Yamanaka Record: 24-0-2 (17 KOs)
    Ranking: This Week: 9 | Last Week: 9 | Weeks On List: 19
    Title: WBC bantamweight

    10. Kell Brook Record: 35-0-0 (24 KOs)
    Ranking: This Week: 10 | Last Week: 10 | Weeks On List: 2  Title: IBF

    OK, now on to boxrec rankings for comparison. Boxrec uses computer accumulated points which are the first emboldened numbers to go along with each fighter record, the most unbiased rankings regardless of various human errors in assigning the points for various performance measures:

    1. Wladimir Klitschko Dr Steelhammer 1330 64-3 heavyweight

    2. Gennady Golovkin GGG 1078 33-0 middleweight

    3. Saul Alvarez Canelo 1075 45-1-1 super welterweight

    4. Sergey Kovalev Krusher 999 28-0-1 light heavyweight

    5. Manny Pacquiao Pac Man 913 57-6-2 welterweight

    6. Miguel Cotto Junito 887 40-4 middleweight

    7. Kell Brook Special K 863 35 0 0 29 welterweight

    8 Keith Thurman One Time 835 26 0 0 26 welterweight

    9 Erislandy Lara The American Dream 781 21-2-2 super welterweight

    10 Adonis Stevenson Superman 777 27-1 lightheavy

    11. Terence Crawford Bud 760 26-0 jr welterweight

    18. Andre Ward 637 Son of God 28-0 supermiddleweight

    23. Guillermo Rigondeaux 564 El Chacal 15-0  superbantamweight

    29. Roman Gonzalez 519 Chocolatito 43-0  Flyweight

    90. Shinsuke Yamanaka  342 24-0-2 Bantamweight

    OK, first most glaring contradiction in the two rating systems is Roman Gonzalez being first in Ring yet only 29th in Boxrec due to being in a lower weight class of a smaller population of fighters compared to the more populous larger divisions. In context to the way they do their rankings, the Boxrec #1 P4P female, Delfine Persoon who operates in the lightweight division with a population of only 115 total females, she has only accumulated 172 points in contrast to the Gonzalez 519 points with  a male flyweight population of 709. Cecilia Braekhus is the undefeated 27-0 female welter champ widely acclaimed, yet only 10th P4P due to an exceedingly low welter population of 37 females, so fighter population, ie competition, is important to Boxrec rankings.

    If we combine Choco’s two ratings and divide by two for an average, we’d get a 15th rank which seems appropriate even if he has proven to be a beast in his 3 divisions. He could continue to accumulate points in Boxrec to rise further, but let’s move on to other glaring abnormalities.

    Boxrec has Golovkin #2 which seems about right given a general public consensus that he should be #1, but Ring lists the inactive Andre Ward #2 in spite of his gross inactivity in the supermiddleweight division dating back at least 2 years. He also refuses to leave California except when he was forced one single time by the Super Six Tourney, yet he was still at home in New York against a true international fighter in Carl Froch. Boxrec rankings seem more justified in that regard as Ward, 18th, simply wants to sit on his hometown canned record like another American supposed great, TUE 49-0, did for 9 consecutive years.

    Ring has Kovalev and Golovkin ranked 3 and 4 to Boxrec’s Canelo and Kovalev as 3 and 4, so we have only a small measure of congruancy due to Canelo being unranked by Ring in spite of being previously ranked and only losing a majority decision to TUE 49-0, otherwise cleaning out the 154 division at 155lb catchweights as he built to the highly anticipated showdown with Miguel Cotto who is Boxrec ranked. Advantage Boxrec as the Haymon/Goldenboy News of the Ring world simply cannot justify not having Canelo somewhere at this point.

    TUE nose knows it!

    TUE nose knows it!

    Boxrec has Manny Pacquiao ranked 5th, but Ring has dropped him down to 8th in between untested Crawford and Yamanaka in spite of Manny holding the P4P records by a long shot for the most P4P fights, wins, and longest duration in their P4P ratings. We’re talkin’ spiteful Ring ignorance squared x 10 me thinks.

    Moving on, Ring has their former #2, Wlad Klitschko, mysteriously demoted to #6 in spite of starting to tie and break Joe Louis’ heavyweight records set 8 decades ago. Axe to grind? What more can any fighter do than that? He’s sandwiched between the unusually gunshy, barely tested Rigondeaux who hasn’t fought a Ring ranked fighter in two years, preferring to be knocked down by international type journeymen for chump change, and the inexperienced Crawford who is a very good fighter becoming great, but not yet. Wlad has more knockouts than their victories combined and near 5x their combined title wins. Such “boxing experts” represent a gross American bias against foreign greats who have been supplanting their own greats, further magnified by the pitiful dirth of American fighters these days, especially at the contender levels.

    Knocked Cold

    Knocked Cold

    So now we’re down to Ring’s Yamanaka and Brook ranked 9 and 10, so there’s some overlap with Boxrec who ranks Brook 6th, but Yamanaka only ranked 90th down to being inexperienced in a low population of fighters. Yamanaka would be 50th if we combined rankings, not bad, but hardly a P4P top 10. What were Ring’s “experts” ever thinking, or were they? To think or not to think must be the burning question raging inside empty noggins.

    In Boxrec lower 10, they have Miguel Cotto, Keith Thurman, Erislandy Lara, and Adonis Stevenson, none of whom Ring ranks. Cotto I can see because of his long excellence and competitive losses, but Thurman and Stevenson are still relatively unproven being held back by their sugardaddy, Al Haymon. The always running, too scared to fight, feather fisted Lara barely has twenty wins to go with two losses and two draws in terrible performances, but again, there’s not a lot to pick from. Crawford, Ward, Rigondeaux, Yamanaka are all out of Boxrec’s top ten. I could see Crawford and Gonzalez squeaking in based on their startling performances and anticipated years of peak performances.

    Gone is Gone

    Gone is Gone

    I say Boxrec rankings are considerably better, so there it is, the mystery meat of sports, boxing, being served up on the public platter for consumption…yum…who’s on first, no, wait, he’s on third, wait, which way is up and where’s my candy bar and envelope? Only in boxing.

And The #1 Boxrec Heavyweight Loser Ending 2014 is:

A fantastical 49 year old heavyweight Frantisek Pacalaj from Slovekia with a record of 0-10, 0 KOs with 8 KO losses is currently ranked last of the hundreds of 877th ranked heavyweights out of the 1075 total heavyweight population. Then we have one Miguel Sanchez unrated below even that.

Been a great year for heavyweights overall with some dynamic up and comers in the mix with Wladimir Klitschko making his last all time run at the heavyweight records. 2015 should be a heavyweight breakout year with America’s strongest heavyweight contender Bryant Jennings likely to challenge Wlad at Barclays in New York.

See you then and stay safe for the New Year celebrations….